Alex Rossol

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Introduction to VR Cave and Its Origins

[0:00] Alex, welcome to the show. Most attraction owners didn't wake up one day planning to build a VR software company.

[0:07] How did VR Cave come to existence? My brother and I always wanted to do a

[0:12] startup together and we're always looking for ideas and one day uh we were living in this same duplex together and

[0:19] he'd come come by one day and like oh there's something about this virtual reality stuff we should take a look at.

[0:25] So, we bought a headset, tried it out is the Oculus Rift uh development kit 2 way

[0:30] back in 2015. We tried on the headsets and we're like, okay, there's something awesome here. Felt like a very cool

[0:37] medium to be in. And we did some brainstorming like, oh, where should we kind of go with this? And where we kind

[0:43] of initially thought is like, oh, simulation makes a lot of sense. And while I think enterprise and kind of

[0:49] serious games and stuff makes plenty of sense and we're like large companies

[0:55] won't pay for an incomplete product cuz virtual reality was just so new and cutting edge. So we decided to kind of

[1:02] start an entertainment where people are always looking for the latest and greatest. And so yeah we kind of started

[1:08] VR Cave and we're like oh let's go find a unique part of the technology and kind of go deep in that direction and stuff.

[1:15] Admittedly, we broke one of the cardinal rules of uh starting a business where uh

[1:21] we were a business idea or a product in search of a market. And then it took a

[1:26] couple years for uh VRK uh took a couple years for VR to get generally more

[1:33] ubiquitous and understood in the in the in the uh space, but we eventually got there. started kind of from an initial

[1:39] seat of like, oh, we love the technology and we're really passionate building something in the space of which

[1:44] entertainment made certainly the most sense. So, what problem were you trying to solve when you guys started?

Identifying the Problem in Entertainment

[1:50] Entertainment operators are always looking for something new and novel to bring new customers sooner and their old

[1:57] customers coming back for more. We've always been on the bleeding edge with our tech and the very first product we

[2:05] made uh was actually a 8minute VR haunted house and this is hospital of

[2:10] horror uh which we still actually have today within our product offering and I recall the tech on that one. The VR

[2:17] backpacks that just come out and they arrive the day before we're going to open the public. So, we didn't have a

[2:24] full backup plan for if those backpacks didn't arrive on time. Besides like hook you up to a laptop and try to do cable

[2:31] management in a large free roam space, we've always been have a strong focus on

[2:36] novel, new exciting kind of cutting edge stuff. And something we've added over time, which ironic added or more so

[2:44] doubled down and triple down over time, is really that social connection. Uh cuz

[2:50] people go to entertainment facilities in groups and they want to play with their friends. So we've always had a very

[2:56] strong social component to all of our games and experiences. Now like were you coming from tech

[3:02] gaming or attractions uh background? Uh we primarily came from a tech and

[3:07] gaming background. So um I have a degree in computer science, worked in a couple

[3:12] startups throughout the years and then my brother had a PhD in computer science and he wrote his PhD thesis on human

[3:20] computer interfaces which is bit of the underlying tech uh to virtual reality and the gesture management and stuff. So

[3:28] we came from the tech and we always loved video games growing up. we kind of leveraged our skills and our natural

Choosing VR Over AR and Mixed Reality

[3:34] passions there and I I think something that really helped the early days with

[3:39] it. You saw a lot of other startups and startup founders and stuff and um I'd

[3:45] say no shortage of business starters that wanted wanted

[3:52] this product to come to market if only someone would build it for them. but he had the perfect business plan for it and

[3:58] it's like oh well we just built the product and then the business stuff kind of fell in after place. So we're always

[4:05] much more passionate kind of for um the tech and video games uh was a kind of

[4:10] natural passion and entertainment made a natural fit for it. One of the ways we had looked early in this process is

[4:17] taking the example of laser tag. While laser tag has been commoditized to some degree, you can go to a Walmart or a

[4:23] Best Buy and pick up a laser tag vest or Amazon, people will always go to a

[4:28] dedicated facility for laser tag because they get the latest and greatest stuff, an awesome arena, you go there with

[4:34] friends, you do a bunch of other stuff. So, we kind of saw that with virtual reality as well right at the beginning.

[4:39] You could we could make a VR games for the home market, but the mark home market was going to take a lot of years

[4:44] to kind of mature when the first headsets were $1,200

[4:49] um after a $3,000 computer. And then that's you're in for over $4,000 for one

[4:56] person to play. Or you could buy an Xbox and get four controllers and you're in

[5:01] for 500 or less. It's like and you get AAA games. So, we always kind of

[5:06] naturally started on the business to business side with a a tech and a video game focus.

[5:11] How different was the very first versions of what you guys build from what operators use today?

[5:18] We've always been free roam free roam and room scale. Um, we had that day one and in the past you needed VR backpacks

[5:25] for that. So, I might recall the initial size we had was um I think

[5:30] uh 20 ft x 20 ft was our initial standard size or 18 ft by 18 ft actually

[5:35] somewhere in there. And then we kind of modified it cuz to 15 by 18 um as our

[5:40] minimums cuz 15t was a much more common building dimension size. Um and VR

[5:47] backpacks was kind of the uh requirements to get and get in. And then it shifted a lot uh when standalone

[5:53] headsets came out compellingly in the Oculus Quest headset, now known as the

[5:58] MetaQuest um headset. So, the first one and that one you could get a decently

[6:03] high visual fidelity with and you could be in the headset for like $500, $600 um

[6:09] instead of needing three to three to $4,000 per player. So, that was a very

[6:14] strong uh turning point. Today we still actually uh uh support both the PC VR

[6:20] side and the standalone side. Uh which I think is um and it ended up going well

[6:26] because we're kind of going full circle here where you have headsets like the Vif Focus Vision, Vif Focus 3, Pico 4

[6:33] Ultra Enterprise that support very good wireless streaming. Um, so you can get um the PC VR graphics while having the

[6:41] players having the lightweight experience of justice standalone headset. It hasn't changed too too much

[6:47] um from our initial offering which is perhaps a bit rare where we wrote a business plan and it's 90% still intact

[6:54] uh from the original but equipment have changed quite a bit very much so. Yeah, it's standalone is

[7:01] very much the new standard these days and we've always been on the cutting edge keeping uh we're we've chosen

[7:08] design paradigms to be software agnostic and hardware agnostic as much as possible. So as hardware and headsets

[7:15] come out is this a good fit for what we're looking for? Yes, it is. Okay, let's go add this as support and allows

[7:21] us to be flexible kind of to how the shape of the technology changes over time.

[7:26] Explain a little bit more. you work with the different types of headsets and companies who produce them and as they

[7:33] come out you guys adapt to work with your software. Is that how it works? To some degree there's kind of middle

[7:39] layers for a lot of this. So I'd say there's two main streams when it comes to virtual reality and the hardware

[7:46] stacks required on each. On the original PC VR side, you had a gaming PC, which

[7:51] could be in the form of a laptop, a desktop, or a VR backpack that's running

[7:57] Windows, Nvidia display drivers. You plug in a PC VR capable headset, HTC

[8:04] Vive, that was probably the most common stream on that one. And you got some tracking in it. Um, and you get great

[8:10] quality graphics um because you have a dedicated graphics chip supporting that.

[8:15] and the newer set of tech. So, this kind of came out 2019 uh with the Oculus

[8:22] Quest. The big innovation that that brought was something known as six degrees of freedom. Uh so, you look

[8:28] left, right, up, down, and rotation in all three of those directions. So, it's a fully immersive experience as you'd

[8:34] expect. And those run off a cell phone chip that's embedded in there. Now, that cell phone chip has to run everything.

[8:41] Um, so it's running the game or the content. It's running the firmware. In

[8:46] this case, it's the Meta platform. It's taking care of all the uh audio, all the

[8:52] visuals, the tracking, and all that other stuff. And so, there's a lot of things asked of that chip. Um, and then

[8:57] because it's being all partitioned off, only so much can be used for graphics. Uh, so you typically have to scale it

[9:03] back to what's possible on the um on that headset. So certainly the most common one for virtual reality across

[9:10] the world is the MetaQuest 2 I believe is the most widely sold one. MetaQuest 3

[9:17] kind of an upgrade for it and Metaquest 3S. And then on the more commercial side you see Vocus 3, Vif Focus Vision or

[9:25] Pico 4, well Pico 4 Ultra Enterprise would be the top end on the Pico side,

[9:30] but Picos had a lot of options as well. So yeah, that's usually a headset, two controllers, and the content runs

[9:37] locally on the headset. Interesting. Let me ask you, there is a lot of different options. There is a VR,

[9:44] AR, XR. Why you guys have chosen to go with a VR technology. There is also

[9:50] augmented reality and mixed reality. So why VR? Yeah, great question. So all this fits

[9:57] under the umbrella of XR extended reality of which virtual reality is the

[10:03] largest group for all this. Early when we were kind of looking at the technologies and the headsets that were

[10:08] coming out we do actually feel like there's a lot of promise in augmented reality and we like the hollow lens

[10:14] hollow lens 2 always the demos were a little more showy than reality unfortunately. So field of view has

[10:21] those issues like packing enough computing power in into the field of view. um it's been a challenge. Magic

[10:26] Leap was supposed to be amazing and then that hasn't quite fully taken taken kind

[10:33] of root and stuff and then mixed reality I feel is like come out of left field

[10:38] quite expecting it. Mixed reality I guess to show a bit of the differences for it. Uh so virtual reality which is

[10:44] what we focus on the from the viewer perspective everything you see is virtual so it's on a screen. Augmented

[10:51] reality, you see the real world like through a pair of glasses or through a lens and then virtual elements are

[10:57] superimposed on top. Mixed reality is where it's kind of partway between both

[11:03] of those. So the world is rendered usually through cameras and then you

[11:08] have virtual things put on top of it as well. So the pass through mode in

[11:14] MetaQuest 3 or the Apple Vision Pro, while they call it a spatial computing device, it's a mixed reality headset.

[11:21] And yeah, so why why have we kind of gone for virtual reality? With all these technologies, you you need some killer

[11:29] app um that uses technology to the fullest and makes use of everything that

[11:35] it can do. Well, for virtual reality, while it has lots of use cases, the best one so far has been video games kind of

[11:42] for the immersion and the amount of fantastical um visuals and experiences you can you can impart. You can be

[11:48] inside the video game unlike anything previous to it. And there's cool applications on augmented reality and

[11:55] mixed reality, but there's no killer app that, oh, hey, the experience or doing

[12:00] this task is 10 times better than what's available today. And we we're still waiting to see like what's the strong

[12:07] why that those other kind of uh technologies and headsets uh use and stuff. Something that I think could help

[12:14] fix that stuff is coming overcoming the computing issue which bunch of companies

[12:19] will be trying that this year with a puck system where a mini computer attached to like mixed reality glasses

[12:25] or augmented reality glasses. Bunch of companies will be coming over with that this year. But I think with like 6G

[12:33] bandwidths in the future, you can stream a bunch of stuff to right to a headset or a pair of glasses that may really

[12:41] unlock a bunch of things in the future, but that allows for a lot of data. You still need to have some anchor

[12:47] experience or anchor day-to-day workflow that really really makes the difference. Uh, so you chose VR because of the guest

[12:55] experience mostly. When we started 2015, 2016, augmented

[13:01] reality wasn't quite arriving yet. You could get some dev kits by 2017, 2018. Um, and mixed reality only showed up

[13:08] realistically in the last um, three years thereabouts. Um, or maybe even two years um, when pass through uh, pass

[13:16] through technology got good enough. they're later joined to the kind of mass

[13:22] market. So those are still newer technologies both on the technical side but also market potential. So the

[13:28] largest one is still currently virtual reality. And you know the the metaverse was an interesting idea put forward by

[13:35] Zuckerberg. And while I think it has some legs, it's still got to ask the question like what experiences can exist

[13:41] in the metaverse that are better than what you're doing today. So VR I think right now has the best capable

[13:47] experiences and is the most tried and tested and the technology is the furthest along right now. Not to say

[13:53] that that can't change the next couple years, but VR is certainly the most mature at this point. Are you afraid that other technologies

[14:01] and other experiences can be strong competition to you once they also start

[14:06] maturing? Not so much. So, we're not deeply married to what we do today and stuff in

[14:13] the sense that, you know, uh, we're hardware agnostic. So, if a new mixed

[14:19] reality headset comes out and there's a good way to kind of put an experience on it, we're certainly looking to open

[14:24] sight lines into that and try trying that out. Uh, we're very much focused on entertainment and social, uh, bringing

[14:31] people together through technology. Um, and right now the best way to do that is virtual reality. Um, there's kind of

[14:39] some cool use cases I see with mixed reality where going back to the laser tag example, you can reuse like an old

[14:45] laser tag arena. Um, and then put all these cool visuals on top of it with mixed reality. So, you can wear these

[14:52] new headsets that can revitalize kind of old stuff, which is a cool kind of thought idea. See if that kind of takes

[14:58] off. The focus we have today is entertainment and whichever headset or technology that gets us there, that's

[15:04] where we want to be. And I noticed that VR Cave has stayed consistent on a social and group based VR, not a single

[15:11] player headsets, not like isolated boos. And this is what I'm familiar with. When I first experienced VR for my escape

[15:18] room, for example, I actually bought one of the HTC Vive systems and we paid the

[15:24] crazy amount of money for it and we had one station that we were working on u and it it never took off. It's um

The Focus on Social Multiplayer Experiences

[15:31] compared to our escape room sales, it was you know not even comparable and then I know boos start existing where

[15:38] people would come in and play in a booth but it still was single player and you interestingly enough focusing on a

[15:44] multiplayer experiences. Mhm. Why? Yeah. When we kind of looked at it um we

[15:50] certainly saw the booth stuff at the beginning and that was the easy lowhanging fruit for it. Uh what we

[15:55] initially immediately saw as well it's like well the headsets are going to get cheaper over time um somehow exper and

[16:03] this will come into the home much more readily. So, we had kind of saw a lot of the early VR booth style experiences uh

[16:12] were similar to internet cafes uh which people went to when they didn't have internet at home

[16:18] or there's gaming cafes as well where high-end gaming computer um and you

[16:24] could go there with like a land gaming thing with you go with friends but in both those you know that's like oh

[16:29] that's going to be limited until this gets commoditized um so and you don't know all the ways

[16:35] like back when it started, you'd have no idea that the Meta Quest 2 would, you know, do so well, but that's like five

[16:42] five years down the road. So, and we decided where we wanted to start was like escape rooms really and kind of

[16:49] going to that X. Um, you know, how can a virtual reality do some how can this

[16:55] application be 10 times better than what people do today and stuff? And as you know from your experience uh with escape

[17:00] rooms, like building an escape room, lots lots of hours, lots of sweat equity. It's you can buy it and it's

[17:07] like 25 for a starter kit up to 50 100 150,000 sky's the limit on what you can

[17:13] buy. Uh uh but you can put in sweat equity to kind of balance it off. Uh of

[17:18] course as that gets more popular bar required bar of how good that experience needs to be needs to be upgrading as

[17:24] well over time. And then we also saw with escape rooms you know you rent out a space you get you build let's say four

[17:29] escape rooms. If you give someone an amazing customer experience after they've done all four, they're they

[17:35] won't be coming back to your business despite how awesome it was. And you're like, and then there's a risk to taking

[17:40] off one of those rooms offline. Um because then you're only producing from three. You're rebuilding for the months

[17:45] uh for that other one. Then you hope that one's going to be as good as money producing as the rest of them. And then the ongoing maintenance of clues walk

[17:53] out with player. Sometimes things get broken and all this other stuff. and kind of why we started with VR cave and

[17:59] virtual reality. It's like, okay, let's go into people know what escape rooms are. So, let's kind of template our

[18:05] stuff off that and then let's blend what VR can do well with showing very fantastical places. So, first one was

[18:12] Space Station Tiberia. Space station zero gravity is very tough to do here on Earth. So, that was a natural fit. We

[18:19] did one with underwater with sharks and deposit of Osiris and then one with mixing potions getting cool effects and

[18:24] fighting a dragon and dragon tower. And then you know within a single physical piece of real estate you have you can

[18:30] have that player come back to that room three times, four times, five times cuz um you just press of a button and it's a

[18:38] different escape room experience. So they're using that piece of real estate again and again. So that's kind of the

[18:43] what we had seen as a way of doing a killer app. We're like this technology lends itself and we can do something 10

[18:51] times better than what's done today in the sense of room resets. There's localization put in, hints are built

[18:57] into the system, all this great stuff and a new game comes out every year. So you even have that room fatigue being

[19:03] managed and stuff. So that one we saw a much more sustainable model long term. And early on with entertainment, it's

[19:09] like, oh, people go in groups with friends. You can put them in single booths, but they want to be in the same

[19:15] game together. And it's like, well, let's remove the walls and keep it like room scale. And then like what's the

[19:21] most immersive part of virtual reality when it's free roam as well? You're not tethered in with any wires and

[19:26] everything. So, we just decided, you know, go with a high watermark for

[19:32] um technology and then build it out. So is it designed for operators or I feel

[19:39] like VR it's more for developers first in first place right now. Who is your

Understanding the Market and Ideal Customers

[19:44] clients? Yeah. So effectively this is a double-sided market. So we of course

[19:49] sell to entertainment operators all around all around the world. Uh escape room businesses, virtual reality

[19:55] arcades, family entertainment centers, any of those kind of uh things make a lot of sense. Even mobile event based

[20:02] stuff. So providing an easy solution for them like oh this is the hardware package this is the software package

[20:08] this is easy to do room sets this is a bunch of ways to make your life as an

[20:13] operator easier. Now on the flip side of it the other side of the market is of course the players. You got to have a

[20:18] cool and compelling experience and we've always been very purposeful on like having a high quality experience to get

[20:24] them interested get them into the experience and then come coming back for more. uh because the value for the

[20:31] operators as well is when their customers, their patrons come back again and again. So make a great game and put

[20:38] good operator features in. So the operators enjoy operating it, players enjoy playing it. So it's really a

[20:45] double-sided market. Who is ideal customer for you? So you mentioned escape rooms, you mentioned the family entertainment centers where

[20:52] where it fits well where you can see that people really enjoy it and and it's

[20:57] just like profitable and and makes most sense. Yeah. So currently we're in about 270

[21:04] locations around the world. Lots of different types of operations with it. And I'd say the two main ones would be

[21:11] escape room owners or people that are looking to have an escape room style experience within their facility. So

[21:18] mixed entertainment place as well that kind of business owner. They care much about curating the player experience.

[21:25] Players get in, do they have a good time? They well taken care of. Um high win rate for players all very important

[21:31] and stuff. and they understand the escape room market, how to put it

[21:37] together as deals and mark and and packages. And that's kind of one uh one

[21:42] ideal customer profile you could say for it. The other one would be the gamer,

[21:48] the escape room player base, which is typically 18 to 35year-old equal male or

[21:53] female. They'll play for different reasons. So like being near student campuses makes a lot of sense uh for

[21:59] university or college. Um, and then on the other side hitting the gamer demographic, ages 13 and above, mostly

Understanding the Gamer Demographic

[22:08] male. Um, and these would be like VR arcades most often. And they, I would

[22:14] say, understand the player base and are able to offer something that the gamers

[22:19] don't get at home. And the social aspect certainly helps. Like, you know, our our

[22:24] arenas are 17 foot by 20 foot is our recommended size. So, six players participating in a shared game together.

[22:32] People don't have that size of space at home to play with, nor do they have six headsets ready to go for them and all

[22:38] their friends. So, the virtual reality arcades that really understand kind of like how to bring in that kind of um

[22:46] gamer demographic, leaderboards, and a bunch of other stuff can help. And we bring in a unique place where it's like

[22:52] we've very much focused on the escape room side of things. There's a lot of other great content with zombie shooters

[22:59] and other kind of games of that type. There are many and many of them and it's

[23:04] like other operators can do that stuff. Let's let's focus on creating great immersive um escape room experiences

The Challenge of VR Sickness

[23:12] then with their VR. Where are we right now as far as

[23:18] uh motion sickness? It's not motion sickness but you know what I'm talking about when people experiencing some uncomfort. Uh, and I know it was like

[23:25] pretty intense in the past. Is it changing? Yeah. So, the stem stemming of that is

[23:31] from VR sickness as it was dubbed early on. Um, and admittedly, it's caused some

[23:37] headwinds since then, where early experiences caused a lot of this VR sickness, which is very similar to

[23:43] motion sickness. And it's basically there's a disconnect between what you're seeing with your eyes and what your

[23:48] brain perceives behind the scenes. A lot of people's first experiences with virtual reality made them nauseous. So

[23:54] they're like, "Oh, VR is not for me." And we were aware of this kind of as we started building out and there's some

[24:00] early inklings as to what was causing it. Um, and so we've avoided all those

[24:06] issues like the plague. So I'd say all of our experiences, no VR sickness at all, uh, with all of us, even if you had

[24:12] even if the player was susceptible to something in the past, like all of ours are designed for maximum comfort. So

[24:17] there's like no VR sickness at all in the VR cave experiences and kind of what has had caused it. So one was um

[24:26] forced perceived motion on it when the virtual world is moving around you but

[24:31] your inner ear is saying that it's not moving. A VR roller coaster is a big example of that. Um you don't feel the

[24:38] motion that you're seeing. So that disconnect causes nausea. And then in a

[24:44] similar vein um the technology has gotten better on this. Like if you turn your head, is what you're seeing does it

[24:51] lag behind? Is it slower than how how you uh turned your head? And there's

[24:56] motion to photon latency is what it's called. Uh so from your movement to your eye perceiving it. It needs to be under

[25:04] uh 20 milliseconds of delay or else your brain's like, "Oh, you're you seem to have strange vision. You must have had

[25:10] poison. Let me get that poison out of you." Which then causes nausea. Um, and then the final one is similar to that,

[25:16] like the frame rate for things. This one actually had different comfort levels. So, 60 frames per second was okay. 75

[25:25] was good for almost everyone. 90 frames, as far as we can tell, is perfect for everyone, meaning at a constant 90

[25:31] frames per second. And this is sometimes why with virtual reality, the graphics don't seem as good. Uh, but that's cuz

[25:37] you're at 90 frames per second, which is 50% higher than most kind of gaming stuff. um you can go to 120 uh frames

[25:45] per second or 120 hertz. Not sure if there's much value in that per se. Not

[25:50] not too much perception stuff. So yeah, I'd say VR sickness today can kind of be

[25:55] mitigated mitigated uh if you avoid that those things entirely. Um which is how

[26:00] we've design uh designed it. There's other ways that you can sort of mitigate it. Um, especially if you have motion in

[26:07] your experience or perceived motion by adding like two examples I can give is

[26:12] one is add a cockpit or some stationary stuff right next to you. This would be

[26:18] similar to in a car you have a dashboard a steering wheel that's all stationary while the windows are all moving and

[26:25] stuff. So be a similar one to that. Doesn't prevent VR sickness but reduces

[26:30] it significantly. Another one is vignetting. So kind of almost getting a bit of tunnel vision and you kind of

[26:36] darken the edges of your visuals. So you only focus on in front of you then you have less motion around you visually

[26:44] speaking. So those are kind of two techniques. If what you're creating must have motion and lots of other techniques

[26:50] are are available when you design a VR escape experience. Uh what constraints are always top of

Designing Engaging VR Escape Rooms

[26:57] your mind? So um there's those technical ones. So, we must maintain like 90 frames per

[27:04] second. Nothing, no dropped frames and stuff when you have too much stuff happening in one place. And we know that

[27:10] we're going to be deploying into our 17 ft x 20 ft room. So, it's got to fit into that kind of experience. And then

[27:16] kind of on the creative design side, we've kind of we always start with like why virtual reality? And we split that

[27:22] into two places. We didn't want to be too much escape room where it's, oh, hey, there's a random combination of

[27:29] three numbers here and I should find out where to put that in. And it's like, why did that three number sequence exist

[27:36] there? Um, doesn't make kind of narrative sense within the world. For example, in Space Station Tiberia, uh,

[27:43] now we're middle level, three systems are offline, and you're like, okay, let's go get three systems back online.

[27:49] But there's no no random scrawlings on the wall of like why uh that you need to

[27:54] input elsewhere or some of the kind of lowhanging fruits that's possible on the escape room side. So it always needed to

[28:01] make kind of narrative sense with it. And we treat a lot of our experience with like the beginning is kind of easy

[28:07] to kind of warm people up to the experience and kind of more puzzly stuff in the middle and then having some cool

[28:12] awesome finale at the end. So you can have a nice exhilarating stuff which goes a bit beyond what a typical escape

[28:19] room experience you'd have but lends itself well to kind of u virtual reality

[28:24] and that kind of more video game side of things um and having a cool climactic finale in a different environment experiences

[28:31] is different length for example escape rooms normally minutes and then I know VR experiences in a let's say family

[28:37] entertainment center it might be like 5 minute shooter experience or or ride experience or something you do all of

[28:43] them. Um, our focus is very much on the 45 to 60 minute um, escape room experience.

[28:50] While our escape rooms contain action elements to them, we're first and foremost uh, an an escape room.

[28:56] Okay. So, your main product is actually escape rooms. That's correct. Oh, I didn't realize that. Okay. Okay.

[29:02] Do you have any other products or No, you specifically focus on escape rooms. Um so

Focus on Multiplayer Experiences

[29:07] um we today we have 10 10 VR escape rooms all 45 to 60 minutes. Uh we still

[29:14] have hospital of horror um the 8minute VR haunted house. And then we have a

[29:20] arcade game called Laser Bots which is a kind of cooperative puzzle game arcade

[29:26] game. Good for kids, good for adults. But yeah, it's our focus has always been

[29:31] multiplayer and except for those other two titles, it's VR escape rooms really. Okay. And uh what's the true like how

[29:39] many people can participate simultaneously? Yeah. So each arena if you run it in uh

[29:45] typically you'd book based on escape rooms book a 1-hour time slot and you'd have up to six players participating in

[29:52] the shared game together. If you have more space, you can have multiple rooms um each with uh six players. There's

[29:58] ways of running it at shorter ones. We've seen locations run it as 30 minute games, I'd say. then you're kind of on a

[30:05] 45minute one. And um yeah um the location that I'm thinking that ran that

[30:11] was actually quite successful with that. So they must have had very very high walk-in traffic and so they're cycling

[30:18] people through very quickly and stuff. So but yeah um the escape room experience is kind of like a night out

[30:25] experience. So it's like oh let's go do this with a group of friends and then they'll stack something else on it as

[30:30] well. So for corporate events, can you add more groups of six people that it's

[30:35] bigger event and all of them in the same environment or it's going to be separate rooms and they not interacting between

[30:41] group of six to another group of six? Yeah, great question. So with corporate groups or actually kind of something

[30:48] we've done generally is with for the operator friendly controls on this one you can be hands off with it where it's

[30:55] like okay six players after you get them into the game the introductions built in the rules for VR the hints are all you

[31:00] just come back at the end of the experience so it kind of runs on autopilot or you can curate the player

[31:05] experience and you're like oh well we got a lot of you guys uh um in the group tonight so let's just do um instead of

[31:12] doing the three room three three or four room VR experience, we'll just do one of the rooms. So, everyone in this group

[31:18] group here, we're going to do this for 10 minutes and away you go and then cycle it to the next one. So, for

[31:23] corporate groups who are at high throughput, it's possible to just do uh a mini version of the escape room

[31:29] experience um versus doing all them and have the keyboard controls and shortcuts

[31:35] to kind of allow for shorter experiences versus the full 45 to 60 minutes. So, you can have high throughput if the need

[31:42] calls for it. How much would it cost? We are a bit region dependent. Um, and the cost is kind of split onto two

Operational Considerations for VR

[31:48] sides. One is the hardware and equipment number of options to go with. Um, I'd say ballparks um

[31:56] um 5,000 or 8,000 or 12,000 um for a six player setup for all the hardware and

[32:03] equipment needed for one arena. And then kind of on our software side, uh we got two options to work with. There's a

[32:10] option kind of for uh software combo where you own all the games outright and

[32:15] forever. Good if you're going to be having multiple arenas and things like that. So prices will vary on that one

[32:21] depending on region staff. So that'll be somewhere between 30 to 45,000 for that one. And then the other option is a bit

[32:29] more like pay as you go or kind of like a lease option for VRave. We have a uh

[32:34] upfront activation fee three 3 to 5,000 and then an ongoing uh rate of um 3 to6

[32:42] uh dollars per player going through and stuff. Um we provide all the uh marketing supports the games new games

[32:48] every year in a local local territory or exclusive region for each of our operators as well.

[32:54] Does it come with a separate booking system or operators can use whatever

[33:00] booking system they use right now? Yeah, it's it's the latter case. We find most operators have their favorite one or

[33:05] already have one. So, it's like, okay, if you have one, yeah, we'll just just add add our stuff as a product within

[33:11] that as well. So, no need no need for an additional booking system. And what's the normal pricing you see uh

Pricing and Cost Structures

[33:17] operators price this experiences compared to, you know, physical escape rooms? Yeah, and this is feeds into a bit as to

[33:24] why we have regional pricing with things. Um, we find the pricing for it typically follows local escape room

[33:30] pricing. So what you would charge for local escape room experience, you would charge for our experience as well.

[33:35] Okay. Operator have your equipment. How many different options they can offer? Uh typically it'd be 11 or 12 games um

[33:44] or experience are available um around the world and adding adding a new escape

[33:50] room experience every year as well to that. So it's a great option today and then it gets better over time as well

[33:56] and we'll add additional features like um additional hint stuff or uh

[34:02] additional rooms here and there sometimes or localization is a big thing. So we have eight supported

[34:07] languages today English, French, German, Spanish, Italian, Russian and Dutch. Um

[34:12] and we'll be adding more more of these languages over time as well and supporting them into the future. the

[34:18] prices you're mentioning how much it cost for six set. It's amazing because I remember I paid 10k just for one set,

[34:25] one computer. There was a three games installed and one headset. That was it.

[34:31] And it was it was with cables. So completely different experience. So prices went down dramatically. What

[34:37] about how durable everything? Because this is another problem we had. Headsets

[34:42] would start glitching. There's always problems with the cables connections. how durable it is right now.

[34:48] Certainly like the I think the HTC Vive the durability of the cable came up as

[34:53] an issue very often. I think maybe that was like it was underdesigned for its use case which ended up its use case as

[35:00] to what it ended up being. The headsets today I'd say are quite quite durable. Um it doesn't come up as a factor these

[35:08] days generally speaking. Now, sometimes with like searching manufacturers, it's

[35:13] worth it upgrading the initial kind of straps that come with it to be like, "Oh, okay. Here's this other accessory

[35:19] you can put on." Changes the style. Makes it actually more durable and more commercial like by just upgrading the

[35:24] strap. That's kind of like the Apple Vision Pro. A nice comfortable strap. There's no waiting on it. So, it's like

[35:30] it's all very forward weighted. You want the headsets to have if you have a screen and battery in the front.

[35:36] Ideally, you have like additional battery or some counterbalance. So, it's a little equal forward and backs. Um,

[35:42] there's accessories to make it a little bit more durable. Um, but yeah, it's durability has certainly increased over

[35:48] the over the years. And because you don't have a cable that's been yanked in a bunch of places, much much better.

[35:53] Okay. And so, full set of for six uh cost about 30K. Am I correct? Plus or

Durability and Reliability of VR Equipment

[36:00] minus? 30K would be if you went all the PC VR route. So if you got all the headsets

[36:05] and a gaming PC behind each of them could probably even be under 30 30,000 for that. Back in yonder year you

[36:12] certainly with VR backpacks and everything. Yeah. Yeah. It was 30k these days of complete set of six uh all the

[36:18] hardware equipment for one arena. Is that 6 to 12,000 total for six players?

[36:24] Okay. Yeah. Which is very affordable compared to building escape room. Very much so. Yes. uh now their value

[36:30] proposition like oh built much faster and it's a cool experience that no one else has.

[36:36] If an attraction owner is listening right now and considering VR, what advice would you give them before they

[36:41] spend money? So VR has certainly lots of options with it. Um and just cuz the tech is cool, VR

Advice for Potential VR Operators

[36:50] alone is not a silver bullet. Build it and they will come unfortunately is just just not quite the case. So, you know,

[36:56] it's treated like another entertainment option stuff. For example, if they were passionate in escape rooms, it's like,

[37:03] okay, good escape rooms are um I'm talking about physical ones. Good physical escape rooms are helpful, but

[37:09] people need to know you exist. And hiring the right people that are also excited um and can bring that excitement

[37:15] to the to the players and good player experiences, looking after customers. So

[37:20] sales, marketing, operations, there there's so much more than just kind of the product as as well with it, you

[37:25] know, where it fits well where it's like, okay, no, I want something kind of cutting edge and I I understand that's

[37:31] it's, you know, the technology is cool and awesome and unique and there's a full business to kind of wrap around it

[37:37] as well. And and then similar if if you're an existing business owner, it's like, oh, I have this underutilized

[37:42] space. Let me go swap this in. It's like you've created a new product offering in your business. Make sure people know

[37:48] about it. Train your staff. So lots of play through. So they can be like, "Oh yeah, I love love the one with the sharks." Or, "Oh, I love that one that

[37:54] you're traveling through time." So all those kind of known known things in

[38:00] business very much still apply on the virtual reality side. You know, on marketing side, one of the things I noticed like if it's uh for

[38:06] example, parents in a family entertainment center, when it stays empty, it looks broken. It looks like

[38:13] nothing working. It's dark. And also another thing I noticed that when people even playing if there is no screen where

[38:20] you can see what they doing inside it also kind of just not fun even to watch.

[38:26] So how do you overcome this uh issues? Yeah. Yeah. Um at a what we certainly

[38:33] feel that as well at like trade shows and conferences people naturally or subconsciously gravitate toward booths

[38:40] that are busy. There's a giggle over there. they m there must be something cool to check out and you'll want to check that out. And if you have a very

[38:47] large empty booth because no one's playing currently, it's like oh something wrong with these guys that this is not cool and engaging stuff. So

[38:54] certainly it's unique kind of with our stuff where it's like that applies especially kind of on the floor of a

[39:00] family entertainment center or something. You like seeing people in there and so having viewing into that and people having fun and reacting to

[39:07] things that you don't see in that it looks like they're acting crazy or something and you're like they're screaming. Let's have a look at that.

[39:14] Oh, that's what they're doing cuz they can see on the screen. So on the virtual reality side certainly that that helps a

[39:19] whole bunch. I want to see what they're seeing and stuff. Now as a strange thing with our stuff of course like oh yeah we do escape rooms. You don't see into

[39:26] escape rooms even if you're walking by. Usually escape rooms are all behind closed doors because you don't want to

[39:32] give any puzzles away and you want to kind of allow people to be happily surprised when they kind of go into that

[39:38] as well. So it's it's a unique world where where the VR escape rooms kind of live in both foot in both both ways. So

[39:46] we've seen it operated in a single room just like an escape room attraction or it can be half walls or completely open

[39:53] much more like a family entertainment center or arcade kind of attraction. So the big thing is kind of getting people

[39:59] in to try it out and then once they try it out like okay I get this now. Virtual reality has a bit of the headwind of

[40:06] seeing is believing. Now you can show some videos and stuff. They kind of pale in comparison to the first person

[40:12] feeling that you get from actually being inside the experience. So sampling a whole bunch and providing demos and

[40:17] always have people in there certainly helps helps a whole ton. Yep. 100% great advice. If somebody is

[40:24] considering uh VR, what kind of questions they should ask vendors? What's the red flags to watch for

Key Questions for VR Vendors

[40:30] when you're an operator looking to purchase virtual reality? Deciding in

[40:36] with the end in mind, like what's the ultimate goal for this one? Uh and who is your current clientele? Is it team

[40:42] building groups, corporate groups, things like that? Are we looking to span into that? Do you have young teens? Is

[40:47] it very young birthday parties? Uh things like that. and then find the content kind of fits into it as well.

[40:53] And deciding kind of what's important contentwise and and then also like how

[40:58] involved do you want to be as an operator? Are you going to be one that rolls up your sleeve, learn the tech yourself and do every kind of part of it

[41:05] and then you can kind of pass that on onto your team or do you want experts to come in, set everything up for you and

[41:11] for it to be foolproof where it's like, okay, just press this button after you gear them up and then press this button

[41:16] to reset and you're done. So, ensuring you kind of know where you want to be with it as well. And I'd say generally

[41:23] speaking, when it comes to virtual reality, while there's been attempts else, it's not fully hands-off. It's not

[41:29] an unattended attraction like a arcade cabinet. Our stuff is mostly I would say it's 90% of it where it's like um you

[41:36] put them in the experience and like the experience runs by themselves with the intros and hints and everything, but

[41:42] every now and again like oh, a battery needs to be swapped or things like that. And then other experiences are um

[41:50] um very actionoriented. People will get carried away and you kind of need someone nearby to make sure they don't

[41:57] go past the banisters and stuff. A good thing is always be uh because uh you can

[42:02] find a bunch of VR experiences. Ask other operators like how's your experience been with this? Do your

[42:09] players like it? Do you like the company that you work with? Are they easy to work with? do they provide you the

[42:14] support of what what you're looking for and stuff as well. So always asking around is great. Nice. Alex, this has been incredibly

[42:21] valuable especially for operators trying to make smart futurep proof decisions. So if someone wants to learn more about

[42:28] VR cave or reach out to you, where should they go? Yeah, they can reach out anytime going

[42:33] to vrcave.io. That's vrcav.io.

[42:40] and lots of information on our website and feel free to reach out if they'd like to have a conversation.

[42:46] Links to VR Cave are going to be in a show notes. So, if you got value from

[42:52] this episode, uh, make sure to leave a comment. It helps more operators find real conversations like this one. And

[42:59] until next time, keep building experiences worth remembering. Thank you guys for watching. You'll see next time.